Tayali: My names are Chilufya Tayali. I’m 44 years old. I live at Washama, Villa Elizabeth, Lusaka.

State Advocate Margaret Chitundu: Yes witness what do you do for a living.

Tayali: I’m a businessman.

Chitundu: Do you know why you are before this court today?

Tayali: Yes Your Honour.

Chitundu: Focus your mind on the events which have led you to this court and tell the court.

Tayali: I recall I was at NPA (National Prosecution Authority) after I had testified in a case relating to honourable Chishimba Kambwili, in which I’m the complainant, before Honourable Simusamba. I was at NPA in the afternoon. And around 15:00 hours I was called for verification on the matter that I had testified in by the arresting officer. When I arrived there, I found him in a meeting [and] I waited for him. He came out after 5 PM. As we were going down the stairs, he received a phone call. That phone call lasted about two minutes or so. When he finished talking on the phone, he told me that the phone call was from PACRA. The person that called him was informing him that Honourable Chishimba Kambwili had filed in some documents to change the details on the directorship of Mwamona. I got concerned because my testimony in court on that particular case before Honourable Simusamba were basically on the directorship of Mwamona. I asked the police officer if he could confirm what the caller had told him, if he could go to PACRA to retrieve the information. I couldn’t go there myself because, since the case was already in court, it would not be good for me to go and start tempering with whatever it was at PACRA. We separated and the following day, the officer called me to go to Central police where he showed me documents confirming that the details were changed. On form 71, the names of the directors had changed from the form that I was earlier shown in court. This time it had different names. One was the names was Mwamba Chishimba but on the form that I was being shown now, which was the new print out, it showed Mwamba Kambwili. The NRC had also changed. The other director’s names had also changed. There was also change on the company secretary. And I was worried that the testimony I had given was consistent to the records or the updated records at PACRA. Such that your Honour if you went to PACRA to get the same print out, there will be very different from what I said in court.


Defence lawyer Keith Mweemba: Mr Tayali how are you?

Tayali: Fine counsel how are you?

Mweemba: You are saying Mwamba Chishimba (was changed to) Mwamba Kambwili. Are you aware that Mwamba Chishimba Kambwili, are also his names? Are you aware of that?

Tayali: I’m not aware of that.

Mweemba: So you actually do not know that those are his names? You have known him as Mwamba Kambwili but you do not know that, that’s his middle name? Mwamba Chishimba, those are his names.

Tayali: It’s news to me Your Honour. Your Honour I’m hearing it from this court. I’m in no position to dispute or agree, I can only speak of what I know.

Mweemba: Now, you are saying the evidence before honourable Simusamba has been altered, has been tempered with. What you said before Honourable Simusamba in court, that evidence remains valid on that record. Not so? Its still valid evidence and the court or Honourable Simusamba will determine that case according to the facts of that record. That evidence is still valid, not so?

Tayali: It is subjective Your Honour.

Mweemba: What is subjective?

Tayali: It may not be, it maybe. The evidence that I gave, anyone will pick it and can make his or her own inferences.

Mweemba: Which anyone! That’s a court record for an active case. Which anyone? That case is still going on so that evidence you gave is still valid. Because Simusamba will not be in anyway confused or anything. He will simply look at the records as they were from 2001 when Mwamona was registered.

Tayali: Your Honour, I get the feeling that the defence is trying to think on behalf of honourable Simusamba. We don’t know how Honourable Simusamba will look at…The defence your honour seems to suggest that they can predict how honourable Simusamba would interpret.

Mweemba: You see, court matters are very serious. You don’t just go to court. What are the charges before that court? Forgery and giving false information to a public officer. So now, the documents that are alleged to have been forged, they are tendered in evidence and the court will simply restrict itself to the charge of forgery. Not the evidence that was produced before that court, isn’t it?

Tayali: It’s an assumption.

Mweemba: It’s not an assumption. Have these documents that you said were altered, where they produced as evidence in that court? Are those documents part of the record before honourable Simusamba?

Tayali: They are.

Mweemba: The new altered documents?

Tayali: The document from PACRA was presented before the court. The details are different.

Mweemba: What I’m asking this witness is, is this new print out, this new document with new information, was that produced before honourable Simusamba?

Tayali: I don’t know your honour.

Mweemba: Did you yourself when you testified, produce or identify this new document before honourable Simusamba? Did you talk about it in that court or you simply talked about the records as they were in 2001?

Tayali: I did not show him the new document because it was not there.

Mweemba: That’s the point I’m making, very good! You are right, it was not there. So therefore, the information on record before honourable Simusamba as far as you are concerned, remains the same from what you testified and has not been altered in any way right. Correct?

Tayali: I don’t know about that.

Mweemba: You don’t know about that. Where is the affidavit that you said, you saw concerning the alteration?

Tayali: I haven’t brought it to court.

Mweemba: So, as far as the record of Honourable Simusamba is concerned, you have said you do not know. And remember you are the complainant here. Your complaint in this court is that Honourable Kambwili altered the documents at PACRA.

Tayali: No. My complaint is that the evidence that I had given when I appeared before Honourable Simusamba, had been changed.

Mweemba: Has Honourable Kambwili ever produced any document in defence before honourable Simusamba? Where he has presented changed evidence?

Tayali: No

Mweemba: Exactly. So the record of honourable Simusamba remains as it is, with the evidence that you gave. Not so? Your evidence remains on that record without any alternation whatsoever. Isn’t it?

Tayali: Your honour I can’t answer that.

Mweemba: You will answer. And have to answer. You have only testified once before honourable Simusamba and your evidence remains on that record as you gave. Isn’t it?

Tayali: Your Honour I know I testified. Whether it is on that record or has been changed, I don’t know.

Mweemba: Answer my question. Has the accused ever been charged with an offence of tempering with evidence? Have you ever complained against the accused with the charge of tempering with evidence?

Tayali: I don’t know about that. I know of my complaint.

Mweemba: Your own complaint is tempering with evidence. Your own complaint. Confirm to the court that that’s your complaint.

Tayali: Yes

Mweemba: First of all, you did not produce any evidence on that day. Did you?

Tayali: I gave evidence in chief. I testified but no document was given.

Mweemba: Honourable Kambwili is alleged to have tempered with evidence. Did the accused person temper with the evidence that had been produced before honourable Simusamba? Yes or no.

Tayali: He did.

Mweemba: And who produced that evidence which the accused tempered with?

Tayali: I did.

Mweemba: But a while ago you said you did not produce any document. Did the accused temper with the evidence that you yourself produced in court?

Tayali: Yes.

Mweemba: When did you produce that evidence in court? Remember you are on oath. When did you produce that? Which evidence did you produce when you gave evidence which the accused later altered?

Tayali: I have not spoken about tendering any document.

Mweemba: See, the charge here has got nothing to do with oral evidence. The charge here of contempt deals with documentary evidence. Do you agree with me?

Tayali: No your honour.

Mweemba: Look at the indictment. Read it, it talks about lodging documents.

Tayali: (Reads…) Chishimba Kambwili on March 6, 2018 in Lusaka, did cause an obstruction or disturbance in the course of judicial proceedings by lodging documents at PACRA to alter the details and records of Mwamona Engineering and Technical Services which were subject of active judicial proceedings.

Mweemba: Yes very straight forward. We are talking about documents that he is alleged to have tempered. Not oral evidence but documentary evidence right?

Tayali: Documents at PACRA.

Mweemba: Yes but he is alleged to have done what?

Tayali: Tempered

Mweemba: Yes now we are on the same page. Now, did he temper with those records that you yourself had brought before honourable Simusamba’s court?

Tayali: I don’t know about it.

Mweemba: And in your evidence in chief…

Tayali: (interrupts) I recognise that man (pointing in the audience) as the body guard to the accused and the way he is looking at me, I’m uncomfortable. Especially that on Sunday Your Honour, I received a phone call which was threatening my life. And I’m uncomfortable with the way he is looking at me.

Magistrate Nsunge Chanda: He is free. Let him speak his mind.

Tayali: Your Honour I’m not a child, counsel (Mweemba) has even been pointing fingers at me, I have not complained. For me to rise up and complain against that man, your honour I seek your protection.

Magistrate Chanda: I have taken note. You are just a witness so you should be looking at me because I’m the one who will make a decision whether the accused person will go in or not. So don’t look at him, you should be looking at me. Don’t threaten your witness (looking as Kambwili’s body guard). That phone call, threatening each other, let me just say that in this modern world matters just come and go, so there’s no need. So just take the phone call to relevant authorities.

Tayali: I have reported.

Magistrate Chanda: But maybe he was just looking at you so don’t look at him. You should be looking here. You are protected. You can proceed counsel.

Mweemba: In evidence in chief, you had said that honourable Chishimba Kambwili had filed in some documents to change the details of the directorship for Mwamona. Remember that statement?

Tayali: Yes.

Mweemba: Honourable Kambwili did not file any documents at PACRA on the 6th, did he?

Tayali: If he didn’t file then who did?

Mweemba: Just answer my question. don’t ask me questions.

Tayali: Come again.

Mweemba: Honourable Kambwili did not file any documents on the 6th of March to change directorship of Mwamona at PACRA. Did he?

Tayali: I don’t know Your Honour if he himself did or someone else did.

Mweemba: Who is the complainant?

Tayali: I am.

Mweemba: And what is your complaint?

Tayali: I might seek clarification. What do you mean?

Mweemba: Your complaint is that he filed in documents at PACRA changing the directors of Mwamona. That’s your complaint before this court. I’m putting it to you that Honourable Kambwili did not file any documents on 6th March. Did he?

Tayali: He did.

Mweemba: You did not visit PACRA on 6th March yourself. Did you?

Tayali: No Your Honour.

Mweemba: You did not even check the records of PACRA on that day not so?

Tayali: No.

Mweemba: You did not even know where Honourable Kambwili was on that day in the afternoon.

Tayali: No.

Mweemba: Did you see him file documents?

Tayali: No.

Mweemba: So as far as things are concerned from your own answering, honourable Kambwili did not file documents at PACRA on that day?

Tayali: I may not have seen him but the records show that he changed.

Mweemba: But where in the evidence that you have brought to this court proving that he changed?

Tayali: Your Honour I haven’t seen it. I saw…

Mweemba: You said he filed, he changed?

Tayali: I said from the records, the records show.

Mweemba: Yes which records show that he did? The question is, which documents did he personally go to PACRA and file?

Tayali: I have not spoken about him personally filing a documents.

Mweemba: But what does the indictment say?

Tayali: I can read it.

Mweemba: You already read it, what does it say? That he filed at PACRA. So are you therefore agreeing with me that you simply have no evidence that honourable Kambwili is the one who lodged these documents at PACRA?

Tayali: That he is the one that lodged personally, no.

Mweemba: Yes, you don’t have evidence?

Tayali: No, personally.

Mweemba: But according to the indictment, it says that he did so. Isn’t it?

Tayali: It doesn’t say personally.

Mweemba: No does it talk about any other person? Read it again…by lodging.

Tayali: (Reads the indictments again…)

Mweemba: So according to this indictment, it’s saying that Honourable Kambwili did lodge these documents at PACRA. I’m simply saying that you do not have any evidence that he actually lodged these documents.

Tayali: I do.

Mweemba: Have you produced it in court?

Tayali: I haven’t produced it but I have identified it.

Mweemba: And the evidence you have identified will show us that he went to lodge these documents? What’s that document which shows that he went to lodge those documents?

Tayali: This is a print out from PACRA…

Mweemba: Where does it show that Chishimba Kambwili lodged this document at PACRA?.

Tayali: It is logical without logging there would be no print out of this document.

Mweemba: No, where does it show that he personally logged those documents at PACRA? I’m looking at the charge myself.

Tayali: Lodging, there is no personally there. Lodging can be done by an agent.

Mweemba: Where does it show that Chishimba Kambwili’s agent lodged those documents at PACRA?

Tayali: By the fact that this print out…

Mweemba: Just answer the question.

Tayali: Without lodging you will not have details as they are in these documents.

Mweemba: You are not answering the question. The question is actually very simple where does it show that he logged those documents at PACRA.

Tayali: By the fact that we have this print out…

Mweemba: Where does it show…Where? I’m not departing from this indictments because this court will only be guided by the indictment. Where does it show? Where is the evidence that Kambwili logged those documents at PACRA?

Tayali: I seek clarification, where as in what?

Mweemba: I’m saying, that document you have identified, where does it show that he is the one who went to lodge at PACRA?

Tayali: This document doesn’t show anywhere.

Mweemba: And I agree with you, it doesn’t. Therefore you have no evidence in this court whatsoever to prove that Chishimba Kambwili lodged those documents at PACRA as the indictment suggests. You have no proof whatsoever to prove that do you?

Tayali: As the indictments reads, this is the evidence.

Mweemba: Does Kambwili’s name appear on form 45?

Tayali: It doesn’t appear here but on the memorandum

Mweemba: Just answer the question. We are talking about form 45.

Tayali: No its doesn’t appear.

Mweemba: Does it show that Kambwili lodged in?

Tayali: No

Mweemba: So there’s no proof specifically to signify to this court that honourable Kambwili lodged these documents?

Tayali: No.

Mweemba: But the indictment is specific that he lodged isn’t it?

Tayali: Lodged what?

Magistrate Chanda: You don’t ask questions.

Tayali: Your Honour he is also provocative the way he is asking (court laughs).

Magistrate Chanda: Counsel you can proceed…

Mweemba: On the 6th March, when you went to court to testify, honourable Kambwili did not cause any disturbance or obstruction to judicial proceedings before honourable Simusamba? Even when you were outside?

Tayali: No.

Mweemba: He did not right?

Tayali: No.

Mweemba: So on the 6th, as far as the proceedings before honourable Simusamba were concerned, there was no disturbance or obstruction in any way whatsoever from honourable Kambwili here at court right?

Tayali: At court, no.

Mweemba: So the evidence that is before honourable Simusamba including the documents that you identified which was later produced, as far as you are concerned, that evidence remains on record and you have never gone back to Honourable Simusamaba to give him fresh evidence. Is that your position?

Tayali: Yes Your Honour.

Mweemba: Have you ever received summons from the state telling you to go and give fresh evidence before Honourable Simusamba?

Tayali: No

Mweemba: And the directors of Mwamona engineering company remain the same from the time of incorporation to date correct?

Tayali: No your honour they are not the same.

Mweemba: The directors are not the same?

Tayali: According to the record, no.

Mweemba: Who is the new director?

Tayali: From the record there is Mwamba Chishimba.

Mweemba: It’s the same person. Who is the new director?

Tayali: Mwamba Kambwili.

Mweemba: Okay. Subsequently, did you find out from PACRA who lodged documents at PACRA?

Tayali: I did not find out who personally lodged in the documents.

Mweemba: But as a complainant you must have the facts with you. So as the complainant who lodged the documents at PACRA?

Tayali: Your honour to me, that was not necessary.

Mweemba: Just answer the question, who lodged?

Tayali: I did not find out [because] it was not necessary

Mweemba: Its necessary. What is he charged with? Lodging, contempt. Who?

Magistrate Chanda: To him its not necessary, so go to another question.

Mweemba: You have dragged a man to court and accused him that he lodged. So you have no evidence that he lodged? Are you insisting that it is not necessary to tell the court the person who lodged the documents and where they are?

Tayali: Personally I insist it’s not necessary.

Mweemba: Very good. No problem. Mr Kambwili is not a director of Mwamona is he? Or shareholders or chief executive director of the company?

Tayali: No, not to my knowledge.

Mweemba: At some point you had wanted to bring in the issues of agents remember?

Tayali: Yes.

Mweemba: I can allow you now. What did you want to say about agents?

Tayali: I have forgotten.

Mweemba: I will remind you. You wanted to say that a company can do something through its agent, remember?

Tayali: Yes.

Mweemba: Who are the agents of the company Mwamona?

Tayali: I don’t know.

Mweemba:Do have any documentary evidence that maybe the agents lodged those documents?

Tayali: No I don’t need it.

Mweemba: Look, my question is not whether you need it or not. Remember you are answering to the court and not to me.

Tayali: Yes Your Honour. I don’t need it to prove this case.

Mweemba: I’m not talking about needing. My question is does he have evidence that the agents are the ones who lodged the documents at PACRA? He can’t talk about needing.

Tayali: I don’t know.

Mweemba: So we are in court here purely based on speculation. We do not know who lodged these documents at PACRA? You have said you do not know. So as things stand here, we do not know who lodged the documents at PACRA on the 6th? There is no documentary proof in this court.

Tayali: I do not know the person.

Mweemba: Has Mwamona, to your knowledge ever been taken to court as a company, for instance by you as a complainant?

Tayali: No.

Mweemba: You have never even lodged any complaint against the agents of the company?

Tayali: No.

Mweemba: But the agents of Mwamona are known to you right?

Tayali: No.

Mweemba: In honourable Simusamba’s court you told the court that you know one of the directors. Who is that person?

Tayali: Mwamba Kambwili.

Mweemba: Have you ever filed a complaint about that agent of Mwamona?

Tayali: No.

Mweemba: But you know him. I want to understand obstruction, honourable Kambwili did not cause obstruction in judicial proceedings. PACRA is not within the premises of court is it?

Tayali: There’s no PACRA here.

Mweemba: And in fact, even if somebody was to make noise at PACRA he can’t disturb proceedings here can he?

Tayali: No he can’t disturb.

Mweemba: And the proceeding before honourable Simusamba on that day were peaceful?

Tayali: Yes.

Mweemba: When you went to NPA what time was it?

Tayali: After 15.

Mweemba: What was that meeting at NPA all about?

Tayali: I didn’t say I was going to be part of it. I was just called by the arresting officer.

Mweemba: Why was he calling you?

Tayali: He wanted to clarify something but I can’t remember on what.

Mweemba: In your evidence in-chief, you said you got concerned because your evidence, form 71, before Honourable Simusamba which was identified, was altered. You remember saying that?

Tayali: Yes I do remember.

Mweemba: This form 71 is evidence before Honourable Simusamba and according to you, you got concerned that evidence had been altered. Has that document been tempered with in that court?

Tayali: I wouldn’t know.

Mweemba: And a company logging documents at PACRA is very much lawful. Its allowed by the law, isn’t it?

Tayali: To my knowledge it depends.

Mweemba: Yes I will allow you to elaborate.

Tayali: If ordinarily you are changing details, I don’t see anything wrong with that. But when there is a court proceedings basing on the facts or records at PACRA, then they are changed, to my knowledge I think there is a problem.

Mweemba: Very good. And please mark your word, you are saying to your knowledge. So don’t complain, I’m now going to ask you based on your knowledge. So this knowledge, where does it say that ‘if there is a matter in court a company seizes to operate and cannot lodge documents at PACRA?

Tayali: I can’t answer that question.

Mweemba: You have said to your knowledge. Where is the evidence to prove that when there is a matter in court documents concerning a company cannot be lodged at PACRA?

Tayali: I was very specific…

Mweemba: Just answer the question please?

Tayali: Yes I’m answering. I was very specific to say to my knowledge. I didn’t say its written anywhere.

Mweemba: Just answer the question.

Tayali: To my knowledge.

Mweemba: Yes it means you have the knowledge. Show us proof that if there is a matter in court, a company cannot lodge in documents at PACRA? Where?

Tayali: In my head your honour. (court laughs)

Mweemba: Okay we shall record that, in your head. I put it to you, there’s nothing whatsoever illegal about that lodging of documents that was done at PACRA regardless of whether there is a matter before honourable Simusamaba or any other. There is nothing illegal about that. What do you say about that? I’m putting it to you that there is nothing illegal about that. Is there?

Tayali: I will not accept.

Mweemba: Well, if you will not accept then give us evidence. Tell us where is it written in the company’s act or penal code?

Tayali: As I have said, I’m not quoting anywhere I’m saying to my knowledge.

Mweemba: Yes that knowledge must lead you elsewhere. Its your knowledge. You are the complainant and you have brought this man to court. Where?

Tayali: Your honour if you will allow me to answer with a little bit of analogy.

Mweemba: No. You cannot answer with a little bit of analogy. No one has asked you that question of analogy.

Tayali: I have the knowledge that the tie you are wearing is red but if you ask me where it’s written…

Mweemba: Just answer the question please we are not interest in those…Are you confirming to the court therefore that you don’t have documentary evidence to prove in this court that when there is a matter in court, a company cannot lodge documents at PACRA? Is that your position that you have no evidence?

Tayali: I don’t have documentary [evidence] but…

Mweemba: Wait wait…first of all you don’t have documentary [evidence]. Let’s go to the next question. Do you have any evidence to show the court that when there is a matter in court a company can’t lodge documents at PACRA?

Tayali: Common knowledge is my evidence.

Mweemba: Common knowledge is your evidence?

Tayali: Yes.

Mweemba: Common knowledge is your evidence. You seem to be very knowledgeable in evidence.

Matter adjourned to August 20, 2018 for continuation of trial.